tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post1380890037524169835..comments2024-01-06T11:22:03.305-08:00Comments on Equestrian Ink: What Makes a Solid-Minded Horse?Jami Davenporthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-9444125238115956222011-08-27T09:19:42.675-07:002011-08-27T09:19:42.675-07:00Kate-- I really enjoyed your post. I left you a co...Kate-- I really enjoyed your post. I left you a comment, but realistically I would have to write another post to talk about all the things that came up for me as I read it. But really, what a fascinating and appropriate subject--how to train horses such that they become reliable riding horses--certainly a subject we all care about.<br /><br />Linda--I agree entirely with what you say, and I also agree with everything you say about your trainer. I feel exactly the same.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-62262518896944814482011-08-27T07:24:50.994-07:002011-08-27T07:24:50.994-07:00I should add, if they weren't "working&qu...I should add, if they weren't "working" they were standing tied--even if it meant all day. And, another thing--not all horses made the cut with her. If they didn't have potential she sent them home after the first week. She wouldn't waste her time with a project horse. I wouldn't say she sent back a ton, but she sent back enough. She came from a real ranch family and grew up tight on money. They didn't have money to spend on rescue horses--a horse had to earn its keep. She also DID NOT understand why anyone would want to keep a dangerous horse around. Period. But she also understood that often times it was the people who made their horses dangerous.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303523299217618526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-889687049405179222011-08-27T07:14:01.982-07:002011-08-27T07:14:01.982-07:00I'm with you on this one. I have a couple of ...I'm with you on this one. I have a couple of those horses, too--all ranch bred and cow-trained. They know they're horses and we're people, and they prefer their own kind, but do the job for humans. <br /><br />My one horse who was bottle-fed and raised by his humans is the most spooky, undependable horse I have. People raising horses like dogs doesn't work. I've thought, too, about why this is and I do not know the answer, but I think it has something to do with the make-up of the horse's mind--too much tinkering by humans causes problems. I do not subscribe to getting out there and working with my horses every day unless I have a real plan and a real job for them, otherwise, I think they're better off learning from each other. A horse has an excellent memory for previous training, and I don't think needs daily reminders. <br /><br />My previous trainer was born and raised on a ranch and to train our horses she always took them to the ranch and rounded up cows all day. When we'd get them back from her, we could go anywhere and do anything with our horses because they'd seen and done it all and were confident. Even dressage riders sent their horses "to the ranch" for her training. Everyone understood it gave them better minds. She used to take our bottle-fed horse every spring and when he came back, even he was a solid mount. She didn't raise a hand against a horse, but she rode them hard and expected them to work. They all respected and sought her out. There wasn't a horse she took in for training that didn't prefer her over their owner by the end of two weeks.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303523299217618526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-13242804012243480082011-08-27T06:21:01.850-07:002011-08-27T06:21:01.850-07:00Some further thoughts sparked by your post over on...Some further thoughts sparked by your post over on my blog.<br /><br />(Drift was bred to be a barrel horse, don't know if he ever ran them.)<br /><br />As always, your posts are insightful and interesting and make me think - thanks!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-53874003508836744812011-08-26T13:51:06.381-07:002011-08-26T13:51:06.381-07:00Breathe--Most rope horses prefer the left lead--so...Breathe--Most rope horses prefer the left lead--some are very hard to get in the right lead. It is, as you say, because they need to be in the left lead when they make the turn in a team roping run. If you buy a retired rope horse you can either try to teach him to lope in the right lead comfortably, or, if you, like me, do mostly trails and not arena work, you can simply lope in the left lead--it isn't a big deal unless you want to do lots of arena work. We trot in both directions, but when we lope, we lope to the left--cause that's the lead Sunny and Henry are comfortable in (and much smoother). This doesn't have to be a problem.<br /><br />As for a horse needing a job--many retired rope horses, including my Sunny and Henry, are just fine if ridden only occasionally. They live in big pens where they can run when they want to, and they are laid back, solid-minded horses, as I wrote about in the post. Not all retired rope horses will be like this, of course. I believe you said Lily was a barrel horse. I'm not intending to insult her or anything, but in general, barrel horses are not known for being laid back and solid-minded. There are exceptions, of course. A lot of barrel horses have a tendency to be excitable, shall we say. I could explain why I think they are different from rope horses, but that would be a whole nother post (!)Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-2302322523662740962011-08-26T12:46:43.023-07:002011-08-26T12:46:43.023-07:00Just sort of a different question on roping horses...Just sort of a different question on roping horses - in my very limited experience I've heard they don't take their leads. I think it's something about how roping works...<br /><br />I have both ends of the spectrum. My only caveat is that a horse that is used to having a job can get to a bad place if they have a long lay off. That happened to Lily. Now she's back and pretty solid. But she has to have a job and consistent work because we are such weekend warriors.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104422629934443842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-9185792291520833982011-08-26T09:19:13.366-07:002011-08-26T09:19:13.366-07:00FD--I agree. Stabled horses may need the regular h...FD--I agree. Stabled horses may need the regular hoof picking (mine aren't stabled) and I, too, have seen shod horses with a stone wedged in a foot. My horses are barefoot most of the time, and my rule is very simple. If I notice ANYTHING odd in cadence or just anything, I pick the feet very carefully. If I see anything suspicious, I pick the feet every day for a week. I also quiz my farrier every six weeks--any signs of anything--thrush, bruising...etc, so I have another eye besides mine checking, and when he pares the feet he can see much more than I can. However, for many, many years I have been virtually free of hoof problems, so, at least in my light, sandy ground, my system works.<br /><br />joycemocha--I totally agree with what you say in your comment. Team roping horses who get "retired" are by and large the good ones worth acquiring as a solid riding horse.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-49723885886194879322011-08-25T20:34:55.250-07:002011-08-25T20:34:55.250-07:00Laura, I wouldn't be surprised if there's ...Laura, I wouldn't be surprised if there's some common mental characteristics in the type of horse that becomes a solid team roping horse. Or working ranch horse. They tend to be solid, tough, using horses.<br /><br />And a lot of it has to do with the hours, plus a low tolerance for crazy behavior, I'd say. If a horse doesn't make the grade, they're not going to be around, too, which means it's a self-selecting process when you look at retired team roping horses--those are the ones who made it.joycemochanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-3589368569349983162011-08-25T13:17:55.399-07:002011-08-25T13:17:55.399-07:00Don't have time to comment properly on this, b...Don't have time to comment properly on this, but Laura, I wanted to just mention that if the horse isn't stabled and isn't shod, I too see no reason to pick feet every day. <br /><br />Stabled horses because the dirt isn't getting knocked out by movement, leading to damp feet and disease, and shoes because although I have almost never seen an unshod horse with a rock wedged in its foot, I've seen lots of shod ones, and they often aren't lame enough to spot the problem without picking out their feet.FDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485030894416936129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-17374545621159043382011-08-25T07:56:06.913-07:002011-08-25T07:56:06.913-07:00Minus Pride--Sugar sounds like a real gem.Minus Pride--Sugar sounds like a real gem.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-27430006410816594972011-08-25T07:31:14.511-07:002011-08-25T07:31:14.511-07:00Just got a chance to read this post.
Sugar spent ...Just got a chance to read this post. <br />Sugar spent 60 days with a roping trainer before I got her. I know that is not long, but I have to say she is very solid minded. She is a four year old mare that rarely, if ever spooks. I have owned her for a year and have maybe seen her spook once. <br />I got on her after a 4 month break (for winter), and this little mare didn't skip a beat. <br />She tests me every now and again, which I don't mind. <br />I will add that she is a halter bred APHA horse with many Quarter Horses in her recent history. <br />I wouldn't trade Sugar for any other horse in the barn. She's got just enough friendly in her to make a 22 year old girl (me) happy and just enough solid to make a timid rider feel very happy.Minus Pridehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10554342160024959549noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-74892920668883494012011-08-24T18:51:51.826-07:002011-08-24T18:51:51.826-07:00Kate--It does make sense--lots--but I think anythi...Kate--It does make sense--lots--but I think anything I would say would just be repetitive. I have some thinking about what what you say--but I need to think about it longer.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-83428529638311788742011-08-24T17:02:14.584-07:002011-08-24T17:02:14.584-07:00I do understand what you mean - guess I want the w...I do understand what you mean - guess I want the whole package and tried to get my two most recent horses with that in mind. Pie's going to get there - although he's more solid-minded than soft at this point, and the soft is come and go. Drift's a question mark but I'm hopeful.<br /><br />One other thought that occurred to me (if I'm not nattering on too much) is the question of affectionate/not affectionate and the tendency of many people I see to baby their horses in a way that sometimes seems to me inappropriate and in fact downright unwise. I don't want my horse to be my baby or my best friend - I like being nickered at but don't mind if the horse would rather do something than hang around with me. I think the solid-minded ones can seem a bit standoffish - they're comfortable in themselves and don't need a lot of reassurance. Horses that have been imprinted (I'm not a big fan of this - a prejudice of mine) or have been spoiled/excessively babied are often apparently affectionate but a lot of that is in-your-face and annoying to me, and some of these horses can have boundary problems and/or be insecure. I like to think of my horses as working partners and want to have a working relationship with them - like with someone at work - where we're serious and have a job to do together.<br /><br />I enjoy being with my horses and grooming and such, but try very hard not to baby them - in an odd way I think that's disrespectful to them as working horses, and I think it makes it harder to get to that place of solid-minded and/or soft, however you define it.<br /><br />Don't know if that ramble makes any sense . . .Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-15980335600170283822011-08-24T17:01:35.663-07:002011-08-24T17:01:35.663-07:00doublek-I was going to say "ranch horses and ...doublek-I was going to say "ranch horses and team roping" horses in my post because I have known some great older ranch horses that are just as you say. The only thing is that in my experience ranch horses are more of a mixed bag. Some of them that I knew were really not that solid--didn't really know how to do much of anything, hadn't ever been ridden by anyone with any skill. I've tended to select from team roping horses because overall, they HAVE to be somewhat "trained" and "solid" just to execute the job. And this is not to say that there aren't plenty of goofy not at all solid-minded team roping horses, cause there darn sure are. But as a group, there are a great many solid minded individuals among them. And I would say there are a great many solid-minded ranch horses as well and they are also a good "pool" to look in when you are searching for a solid-minded horse.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-50215245867586047442011-08-24T16:17:40.193-07:002011-08-24T16:17:40.193-07:00Laura in your post I swear you were talking about ...Laura in your post I swear you were talking about my hubbys gelding Jonesy, older ranch broke QH gelding. He has a few scars so I know hes not had a easy life but he sure appreciates his cushy life he has now packing hubby on the trail. He does anything hubby asks him with no complaints. Hes not affectionate but the other day he did stand in the tack room door and look at the treats, back to me and begged as much as he could think to do. And it worked Hes the second "retired" ranch horse I have gotten for hubby and they are great, go where he points em, no drama and seem to appreciate the life they have now. When its time for Jonesy to retire I will get hubby yet another "retired" ranch horse.doublekarabianshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17058149846416060671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-56023025294685258122011-08-24T15:05:11.629-07:002011-08-24T15:05:11.629-07:00OK--after thinking about Kate's comments, I...OK--after thinking about Kate's comments, I'm going to try one more time to explain what I feel the difference is between a solid-minded horse and well-broke horse who is "with" you. Here's a story.<br /><br />When I was riding Gunner, my very well broke but not so solid-minded gelding, we one day ponied a young horse who was in training to be a pack horse. This young horse wasn't used to the pack rig, and at one point came unglued, bucking, bellering, bogging his head...etc. I was forced to stay with him, get out of his way, try to bring up his head and control him, all while riding my sensitive, spooky, ex-cutting horse. Big fun. Gunner was definitely scared and yet he remained "in my hand" as we stayed with the broncy colt and eventually were able to get him turning in circles and under control. My cowboy friends were very impressed. "That horse's eyes got as big as saucers but he stayed broke," one guy said. That's what I mean by "with" the rider or well broke. Gunner was scared but he trusted me and followed directions.<br /><br />Now if this had happened while I was riding Sunny, Sunny would not have been scared. He would have continued to follow my direction--a little reluctantly, no doubt, as he doesn't like to work hard, but he'd do what I told him. So the net result is the same--sort of. Gunner stayed in my hand despite being scared and Sunny would not have been scared and is never that much in my hand because he isn't that broke, but he would have continued to obey me as he usually does. Gunner is "with" me; Sunny is solid-minded.<br /><br />So that's the difference in my mind. Does this make sense to anyone else?Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-16951936836649152142011-08-24T14:20:21.484-07:002011-08-24T14:20:21.484-07:00Shanster--Your Sera is a perfect example of a hors...Shanster--Your Sera is a perfect example of a horse that became solid-minded. I so agree. And they don't all become solid-minded, and they don't any of them start out that way. And it is a crap shoot with young horses, just as you say. Like you, I now choose among the older solid-minded horses that fit my current needs. Well said.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-2506517548212481472011-08-24T14:17:55.067-07:002011-08-24T14:17:55.067-07:00Well, Kate--I think we might have to agree to disa...Well, Kate--I think we might have to agree to disagree on this one. It may be a matter of semantics. But what I mean by a responsive, well-broke horse, like my horses Plumber and Gunner, is not what I mean by a solid-minded horse. A solid-minded horse like Sunny is not particularly well-broke or responsive, but he is solid-minded and confident in himself. Its two different things. They might both be present in the same horse, of course, and ideally, they would be. But the trait of being solid-minded is not always linked to well-broke, responsive horses, and vice versa. I don't think "rough stuff" is required to produce a solid-minded horse, though I have known, as I said, many horses that were trained in what most people would call a rough way that did turn out solid-minded, and also known horses that were ruined by being handled roughly. A horse does have to have the innate disposition to become solid-minded. I'm guessing your Pie does have this. When he's eight and has had lots of miles and many experiences, he may be just that ideal horse that is both solid-minded and well-broke and responsive. The hallmark of a solid-minded horse is that you can put anyone on him and he will remain confident and reasonably obedient--though he may well take a small bit of advantage of a beginner.<br /><br />Francesca--When I was younger I was all about responsive, trainable, talented horses. It was only in my old age that I got interested (very interested) in choosing solid-minded horses.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-20984186362312666812011-08-24T14:06:11.435-07:002011-08-24T14:06:11.435-07:00Yes I agree... I had 2 TB youngsters... both 4yrs ...Yes I agree... I had 2 TB youngsters... both 4yrs of age, both raised by the same dam, both went to the track. One is very solid minded and is now coming on 11 - I feel I can do lots of different things with her and I'll be o.k. If I'm uncomfortable, it really is more ME than her...and my own weird brain bugs. <br /><br />The other? Not much solid in his mind at all. Pretty much a screamin' ninny. I took a chance thinking he'd be more like my mare and he isn't at all like her other than they look very much alike.<br /><br />Young horses are a crap shoot. I had to learn that and it's fine. I learned.<br /><br />However, next horse I bring home will be trained, been to shows, been trailered, have a history... and I won't go younger than 8. A nice 10 yr old would suit me just fine. grin. Let someone else deal with all the young horse trials and errors as they become solid citizens. :)Shansterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04397551985965117012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-42692073394641193922011-08-24T14:02:52.688-07:002011-08-24T14:02:52.688-07:00The type of soft I'm talking about does stand ...The type of soft I'm talking about does stand up to adversity, and a horse that can't deal with unexpected stuff or hard work or lots of stuff isn't soft, no matter how soft the horse appears to be. I actually think that what I mean by soft is in fact your solid-mindedness with the addition of responsiveness and willingness, as well as physical softness. And it does take pushing the edges and dealing with anything that needs dealing with - that's what I mean by adversity - and the horse needs to know that you have a job for him/her to do and that you mean it - you have to direct, and firm and provide leadership. No rough stuff required.<br /><br />And I think why so many people have trouble with mares is they won't take any sh*t off people and have opinions and as a result often have behavioral issues trained in as a result of being mishandled (leaving aside, of course, the hormonal stuff, which varies a lot from mare to mare). I've had amazing, solid mares and geldings both.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-32943236825958722972011-08-24T14:01:30.546-07:002011-08-24T14:01:30.546-07:00Oh, Laura, I know you weren't saying that ever...Oh, Laura, I know you weren't saying that everyone needs a solid-minded horse!! I was agreeing that people often need different types of horses at different stages of their lives.Francesca Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18201599087106798500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-72960847624153953902011-08-24T13:07:03.719-07:002011-08-24T13:07:03.719-07:00Francesca--I don't mean to imply that everyone...Francesca--I don't mean to imply that everyone wants/needs a solid-minded horse. Qrac seems perfect for you, and being a little looky is not a bother for many competent riders.<br /><br />Susan and Mary--Obviously you value many of the same traits that I value.<br /><br />Kate--A solid-minded horse is a different thing than a "good horse". My horses Gunner and Plumber were not what I would call "solid-minded"--they were great riding horses, though. I didn't need or want a solid minded horse at that point in my life.<br /><br />The kind of self confidence that Sunny and Henry have can look "shut down", I suppose--but it isn't really that. They are confident in themselves and don't need much rider support--a terrible rider could undermine their confidence, sure, but it would take a lot of negative crap to really rattle these horses. Being "soft" and being "solid-minded" are two different things.<br /><br />For what its worth, I think it is possible to make "soft" horses without much adversity--not so solid-minded horses.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-70491084385236723202011-08-24T12:48:40.413-07:002011-08-24T12:48:40.413-07:00Lots here to think about . . .
Maybe a post comin...Lots here to think about . . .<br /><br />Maybe a post coming . . .<br /><br />How does a horse become a solid-minded horse? - it's a combination of experience and training, as well as innate disposition. I don't think there's any amount of training that could make Dawn a solid-minded horse - she's wired too tight, but training can bring her down the road a ways to mental softness, which at least improves things. Pie will be a solid-minded horse if I don't mess him up - he's wired right and has a good start and a good mind. Drift has potential - he was badly spoiled when I got him which is one way to NOT make a solid-minded horse, for sure, but he's still pretty green (at age 10!) and I see some real potential there.<br /><br />The relationship between softness on the inside and being solid is an interesting one - I did note your comment and have been thinking about it. I think it's important, though, to make a distinction between a solid-minded horse and one that's shut down emotionally and just plugging along - some horses with calmer dispositions can do that with rough treatment where the more sensitive ones will fall apart.<br /><br />More to think about - thanks for the post!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-51142679598565607432011-08-24T12:12:50.034-07:002011-08-24T12:12:50.034-07:00I whole heartedly agree with you! I have been arou...I whole heartedly agree with you! I have been around Quarter horses and Qurater "type" horses all my life. I have very few life experiences with the spooky sideways,spins, spooky blah blah blah horse that I so often read about. I wouldn't and won't put up with it. I don't want to be on a ride where I am constanty on edge wondering what "situation" could be around the next turn that's going to make my horse lose it's mind, that is not fun to me. I think encouraging a horse that might be in an unknown, possibly scary "situation" is great, but coddling? It's not for me. Horses like to have a job, define the job with high expectations and that is what you should get. Obviously there are always exceptions, I just prefer to take a pass on those. Oh, and give me a gleding any day, not into the whole hormonal ups and downs, I have enough of my own. <br />Great post!Maryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04068684611506771719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-13053990855772793162011-08-24T10:17:20.690-07:002011-08-24T10:17:20.690-07:00Great post. I'm owned by a confident and yes ...Great post. I'm owned by a confident and yes stubborn aka intelligent Haflinger mare. After experiancing a shying TWH for three years, I'll take a little "opinion" from my horse gladly any day. Love her confidence, just did a ride that involved several things she'd never experianced, covered bridge, corn cannons (these had my Iraq veteran son run for cover last year, that's how bad they are), goats, chickens, bicycles/joggers careening by on a bridge. Was she perfect "NO WAY", did she keep her head, therefore keeping us safe "YES". The bridge thing nearly had her I must say. Of course riding with another mare more experianced with these situations made it much easier for her/me.<br />Personaly I think mares have more balls than some geldings I've known "literally".<br />And no, I didn't pick the trail!Camrynhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12696952736180900465noreply@blogger.com