tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post3845217329173504711..comments2024-03-26T05:15:39.663-07:00Comments on Equestrian Ink: What is NH?Jami Davenporthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-76436835711938247892013-09-21T11:50:46.991-07:002013-09-21T11:50:46.991-07:00Kerrin--Lester was always good with beginners--tha...Kerrin--Lester was always good with beginners--that's how he ended up getting loaned to Sue for her daughter. It was always amazing to me how much of a babysitter he was with kids or novice riders, despite his, uhm, quirks when it came to pressure or speed (or solitude). So we think he has the perfect place with you, where babysitting young and beginner riders is a lot of his job. And its clear he has only gotten better at it, from all that you tell me.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-86697874617820411562013-09-21T09:46:32.815-07:002013-09-21T09:46:32.815-07:00Lester is close to perfect. My sister (not a ride...Lester is close to perfect. My sister (not a rider) rode off alone on him the last time she was visiting us. I was distracted by a child and when I looked around she and Lester were gone. Only a small distance (remaining on our property, but still...) When they returned I said "how did that go?" She said a deer jumped out onto the trail in front of them and Lester was startled but he responded to her rein cue (remember this was her second ride on him and probably her 5th ride EVER) and walked quietly back on the trail. <br /><br />Yesterday a new older teenage rider was in the arena with him and she wanted to trot and canter and he would not go faster than a walk unless I had him on a lunge line in a circle around me. Why? because her seat was quite insecure and he knew it. Later a small but experienced 9 year old rider got on him and he trotted and cantered all over the place no questions asked.Kerrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-20937010238831920902013-09-20T08:11:32.761-07:002013-09-20T08:11:32.761-07:00Kerrin--That is very impressive. You really have a...Kerrin--That is very impressive. You really have achieved a lot with Lester if you could do that. It was always his "sticky" spot.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-79174179772705121632013-09-19T13:17:42.238-07:002013-09-19T13:17:42.238-07:00After I worked so hard for a year 'fixing'...After I worked so hard for a year 'fixing' Lester I took him to Jack Brook Horse Camp and went on a 3 hour ride alone with him to prove that we could do it. He was just a bit stressed going out for a ways, then was 90% calm for 2 1/2 hours and then the last bit coming home he was anxious again. Ideally I would have turned around at the point where he became anxious again, and retraced our steps 2 1/2 hours back but, oh well, I wasn't that invested in it. So yes and no. If I rode by myself every week, I think he would be fixed. I don't ride by myself anymore because we have to trailer out and he probably isn't 'cured.' But I think he would be if I was still a solo trail rider. Kerrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-75096044600736836442013-09-09T08:58:45.539-07:002013-09-09T08:58:45.539-07:00Thanks, Kerrin, for that explanation. And it does ...Thanks, Kerrin, for that explanation. And it does make sense. But I am curious--can you (or anybody else) now take Lester on a solo trail ride (not just away from the barn, but an hour or two through the hills) by himself and have him stay calm? I remember not too very long ago, when we had the Trabing Road fire, you told me that Lester always needed to be within sight of his buddy, Woodrow, or he got upset. And I thought to myself, that's Lester, all right. If you can actually ride Lester on a solo trail ride of an hour or so with no fretting, then you have really changed him. He would always behave on a trail ride in the company of other horses. And really, when we had him, you could certainly ride from my barn to my riding ring and work him by himself. He was never that barn sour with us, though its possible he got worse in the years when we loaned him to friends. However he always became quite agitated (though still controlable, as you say), when asked to actually leave the property and go for a trail ride by himself. Or when tied out of sight of other horses. If you have fixed this, then I think it is quite impressive.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-63088485813691093832013-09-08T21:44:08.054-07:002013-09-08T21:44:08.054-07:00I helped Lester be a better and more confident hor...I helped Lester be a better and more confident horse with these principles: make the right thing easy and the wrong thing difficult, approach and retreat (desensitization), deal with it (flooding) only if it was safe for him and me and only if I anticipated that he would leave the situation calmer than before, play these on-the-ground games to teach a language of communication, yield to pressure, reward and pressure reinforcement{positive and negative reinforcement), rare and judicious punishment, etc. These are all the theories of operant conditioning, classical conditioning and behavioral theory. I know the behavior theory because of my background in veterinary medicine and my knowledge of the NH comes from Parelli and other instructors.<br /><br />The big benefit of NH in my programs is to teach kids and adults that know nothing about horses how horses think and learn, when they are the same as dogs and humans (we are predators) and where they differ ( they are prey animals.) <br /><br />Predators take risks to obtain resources (food, shelter, access to a mate.) Predators play like they live- grabbing, pouncing, striving to obtain resources. Unmotivated predators don't survive and reproduce successfully. Predators learn best from a reward based system. <br /><br />Prey animals avoid risk to stay alive. Flight in fear, defer to leadership, hide in the herd. Yes, they need food, water and reproduction, but at any given moment, these are secondary to survival. A prey animal that ignores danger while looking for the best blade of grass does not live long. Prey animals learn nicely in a pressure avoidance (negative reinforcement) training system.<br /><br />Both systems can change the behavior of either predator or prey, it's just what will work best.<br /><br />So for Lester, I fixed his buddy sour/won't go out alone like this: rode him to the edge of his comfort zone (not very far away from the home/herd), let him turn, 'bolt' (Lester is always controllable, just very agitated and upset) toward home, rounded a tree or post, walk away from home again to the next tree or post, let him turn and 'bolt' for home, round the tree again, walk back away, etc. The wrong thing is 'bolt' for home-so we did that fast (trot) and then disengage and go back. The right thing is walk on a loose rein, easy to do going away, hard going home. First few rides, it was an hour or two or three in a figure 8 in a 40 foot distance. I never asked him to stop moving his feet, just controlled the direction he went. Eventually he learned to go out alone and then to walk home on a loose rein. <br /><br />The mental pressure Lester felt at walking away from his herd decreased when he was allowed to head back home. But that choice was hard work (trot and disengage.) Then he could walk (less effort) but only if he went away from home. The more tired he became, the more he started looking for a third choice- walk calmly home on a loose rein. <br /><br />Another equally effective method was the one I used on my Arab mare. She was an awful trail horse, jigging going out and jigging worse going home. One day I rode home and rode directly into a round pen where I let her go as fast as she wanted for as long as she wanted until she would stop far away from the gate and stand quietly. Then we went back out on the trail. Went out a ways, jigged home, back in the round pen. Only 15-20 minutes and she was stopping by herself. Back out on the trail a ways and walked home on a loose rein.<br /><br />Kerrinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-64994887646235697232013-09-08T14:54:17.627-07:002013-09-08T14:54:17.627-07:00WHP--I don't compete any more--I saw too many ...WHP--I don't compete any more--I saw too many things that I considered to be abuse in the name of competition and the desire to win.<br /><br />And I agree very much with your last paragraph. Well said.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-25726480741335719812013-09-08T12:48:05.845-07:002013-09-08T12:48:05.845-07:00It's not 'natural' for a horse to carr...It's not 'natural' for a horse to carry a predator species on its back. So we're starting off from the premise that we're asking our horses to do something odd. <br /><br />Nor is it especially natural for most horses to compete (stallions seeking to mate excepted), and forming a herd reflects this. So a form of training that reflects the nature of the equine species can't be expected to generate examples that compete and win at artificial man-made challenges. Equally training aimed at creating winners must of necessity focus on developing equine traits that would be perverse in a 'natural' horse. <br /><br />One could argue that competition, broadly speaking, isn't necessarily enriching for the human condition. <br /><br />For my trail horse I'm looking for a respectful animal that behaves fairly predictably and keeps out of trouble. That means establishing a relationship that fits into the patterns of equine behaviour - which isn't the same thing as a human imagining that a horse 'likes' him or her. I try to behave consistently in ways that my horse can process and respond to. I suppose that is 'natural' insofar as I try to communicate in an equine idiom. White Horse Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18256903307281225327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-76166647832357851952013-09-05T07:35:22.962-07:002013-09-05T07:35:22.962-07:00Perhaps what I really meant to say is whatever we...Perhaps what I really meant to say is whatever we call it, any sort of effective horse training is composed of certain key elements, and that good horse trainers of all disciplines are skilled in these things. I would venture to add that good horse trainers of all disciplines can really ride...and have spent many, many hours on a wide variety of horses. Don't think its possible to be a good horse trainer without this background.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-71090728943756759402013-09-05T07:28:48.427-07:002013-09-05T07:28:48.427-07:00Jan, Joyce, Val and Kate--All really interesting c...Jan, Joyce, Val and Kate--All really interesting comments. I've earned a lot from this discussion. I think perhaps we all use elements of Nh without knowing it, and in fact, perhaps all good horsemen do a lot of the same things. For me, its about being able to "read" a horse accurately, being a skilled enough rider/handler to give consistent cues that the horse can understand both from his back and the ground, and always having the clarity that I'm in charge, with the tools to enforce that (doesn't mean I don't listen to the horse's wishes and respect who the horse is--just means that that I remain the boss--this helps the horse feel safe as well as helps keep me safe). Maybe NH and all good training is a lot about this?Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-713901157519466162013-09-05T04:32:44.992-07:002013-09-05T04:32:44.992-07:00Mark Rashid, with whom I ride as often as I can - ...Mark Rashid, with whom I ride as often as I can - it's been more than 10 years now - actually rejects the label of NH for what he does, and I would agree, at least in how NH is defined by most of those who do it. He doesn't agree with the "alpha", "move the feet" or "respect" aspects of NH, tends to do very little or no groundwork after the initial phases of training and is a lot more about working on the rider - developing their feel and timing - than anything else. He believes in listening to what the horse is telling you and working with that. Some of this overlaps with NH and some doesn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-23392760373233301072013-09-05T04:20:55.350-07:002013-09-05T04:20:55.350-07:00The word natural has been misconstrued by marketin...The word natural has been misconstrued by marketing to mean "good" or better than things that are not labeled as natural. Some NH trainers are capitalizing on this trend and it seems to make their students very dismissive of traditional horse training. I get really annoyed when natural devotees turn their noses up at things like bits and saddles with trees. That being said, I am all for listening to my horse and training him based on the application and release of pressure. Good timing is the magic that attracts people to the methods of NH. As many commenters here have stated, timing cannot be learned through a method and I would venture to say that to some degree it cannot be taught. Bad timing can reward the horse for the exact opposite behavior that is desired, especially because horses are always faster than us and better at reading body language. <br /><br />As for the riding part, I do not get the fascination with riding in a rope halter and I do not see how it prepares the rider for riding with a bit. I have also seen the catalogs selling some scary bit and hackamore combinations that I would never in a million years put on my horse and yet they are sold under the guise of being gentle or some how better than"regular" bits. Valhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07335385366138424092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-20303423001994078542013-09-04T21:56:32.332-07:002013-09-04T21:56:32.332-07:00Laura--I completely agree with you about NH method...Laura--I completely agree with you about NH methods and higher level competition. Some of that has to do with the equine temperament capable of performing at that higher level--those horses most often have a lot of sting, and I don't think the NH methodology copes well with that temperament in a competitive setting. I also think that someone who is into NH and riding at a higher level is less willing to put their horses through the hard grind it takes to be competitive at those levels. <br /><br />NH methods tend to mellow out that competitive sting. In a non-competitive setting, that's a good thing.<br /><br />While I don't call myself a NH person, I do share some attitudes (mainly about not using a horse up and listening/observing what the horse tells you). But I think that aspect is good horsemanship, period. The rest of it...heck, I learned a lot of it in 4-H showmanship. Not all of it, but the bronc mare I had as a teenager was MUCH more respectful after a couple of years of showmanship experience. And showmanship is pretty much about controlling the feet, controlling the attention, and moving the horse with the least amount of pressure while horse respects your space. Pretty much NH-type stuff to me.<br /><br />(my preference? The one NH guy who really reasonates with me is Mark Rashid. The others...pfui.)Joyce Reynolds-Wardhttp://www.joycereynoldsward.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-73847272304092591112013-09-04T20:19:05.215-07:002013-09-04T20:19:05.215-07:00Interesting point about competition. As far as I k...Interesting point about competition. As far as I know Clinton Anderson is the only big name NH guy that competes. He is, or at least was, reining. <br /><br />David and Karen O'Connor, big in eventing, were using at least some Parelli, but it seemed to be just one of many training tools. I audited one of David's clinics and he used it to get a horse to jump off a small bank into water. He called it a Parelli technique bit I would say it was just common sense horsemanship. <br /><br />Does anyone know of NH trainers that compete? Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-23560242469454435832013-09-04T19:59:43.063-07:002013-09-04T19:59:43.063-07:00Kate--The funny thing is that I knew Tom Dorrance ...Kate--The funny thing is that I knew Tom Dorrance and actually practiced and showed cutting horses with/against his wife Margaret. I know Tom Dorrance is sort of an ultimate guru to many people, but here is what I saw: He did have an almost magical way of communicating with horses, but...his wife's horse, trained by his methods, was a sweet and willing mare, but unable to be competitive past the intermediate level. Coming from the point of view I come from now, I would be sympathetic and supportive of this, but in those days I only saw the obvious flaw. That sort of training won't make a truly competitive horse. And I believe that insight is still quite correct. I could explain why, but don't want to make such a long comment. If there is enough interest, I will do a post on the subject. At this time in my life, no, longer interested in competition, I have a lot more respect for what Margaret Dorrance's mare truly was.<br /><br />The bottom line, as you point out and many have said, is that you do have to spend those hours riding the horse. There is no getting out of it.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-44429904387540716902013-09-04T17:21:48.434-07:002013-09-04T17:21:48.434-07:00I could go on and on . . . and probably will . . ....I could go on and on . . . and probably will . . . but will try to restrain myself.<br /><br />There is no such thing as "natural" horsemanship - all horsemanship is unnatural in that it involves interaction of humans with horses - nothing natural in that. It's an umbrella term that covers a lot of territory, and there are some very good and some very bad trainers who call themselves NH. It's basically a marketing tag, and fairly meaningless to tell you how someone trains. There are NH trainers who are effective - including in being sure that their horses understand that humans have boundaries - and many who are not. There are NH trainers who use abusive training techniques, including abusive round penning. There are NH trainers who have huge marketing machines and make lots of money roping people into "systems" and "levels" of training. <br /><br />The real origin of NH isn't the Parellis, it's Harry Whitney and the Dorrence brothers, none of whom I think used the NH designation. They proceeded from the theory that horses would really like to get along without conflict, and that there was an easier way to get there than traditional training methods, and that this method involved feel, timing and leadership (not dominance) from the rider. Nothing about predator/prey or alpha, etc., etc. - I think most of this stuff about how horses interact with people is bogus. That said, I'm also not in agreement with the ask/tell/make school of training which is more traditional, and I think horses are deserving of our respect as much as we're deserving of theirs.<br /><br />There are some things about most "branded" NH trainers that I really dislike - excessive ground work and round penning - ground work has its place but darn it get on that horse and ride - and some punitive stuff that is characterized as "make the wrong thing hard" - they leave out the other half of the Dorrences' statement which was make the right thing easy, through feel. I see a lot of people get into this "system" where all they do is endless groundwork and they never ride - they get stuck partly this is because many of them don't really know how to ride and don't have the confidence to do it. There are many middle-aged women with horses who fall in this camp. I understand their caution, but I think they may have been sold a bill of goods. Development of feel, timing and blending with the horse takes time and miles - it doesn't come out of a system.<br /><br />You have to judge the quality of a trainer and the philosophy they use, not from terminology or marketing hype, but from the quality of the horses and riders they produce - judge them by their works. Just like many "traditional" trainers, many "NH" trainers fail the test. The devil's in the details.<br /><br />I've gone on long enough.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-31343218790992521742013-09-04T15:40:30.126-07:002013-09-04T15:40:30.126-07:00FD and Jan--I agree completely with your comments....FD and Jan--I agree completely with your comments. Thank you both for putting it so well. I don't think I can improve on what either of you said.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-73112513616894599342013-09-04T14:26:45.633-07:002013-09-04T14:26:45.633-07:00Yes Laura, I agree that you have to be a good hors...Yes Laura, I agree that you have to be a good horseman to get good results in traditional training also. I guess I left that thought out of my post. <br /><br />I have a feeling that many traditional and many NH trainers are closer in training philosophy than we think. Different terminology and different ways of approaching it but the result is the same, a solid, respectful horse. <br /><br />That is one thing that bothers me about the big name NH pushers. They show or talk about traditional training as rough "cowboys' that just get on and buck them out. They don't acknowledge there is a middle ground, and that middle ground is where most of the horse owners and trainers lie. It doesn't have to be either/or. Rough/cruel or NH. Horse training has evolved a lot in recent years and for the most part buck'em out is a thing of the past.Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-16368075305075080892013-09-04T14:04:29.063-07:002013-09-04T14:04:29.063-07:00I think the problem with any training 'method&...I think the problem with any training 'method', particularly NH, Parelli etc is that they are 'sold' to people as a system but training horses is an art. An art largely composed of feelings. It's true most experienced horse people go about training systematically, and it looks from the outside like you're doing the same things in the same order in the same way, but the important work is being done in the horse's head and no matter how many books on body language you read or classes you audit, the only way to learn to read and project is by doing. People look for shortcuts is what I'm saying I suppose. And also, I guess, traditional methods use feel and body language and always have, but they aren't always couched in a manner that makes that clear, which means NH methods can seem less impenetrable if you don't already have horse body language in your head and instinctive responses. FDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01485030894416936129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-11741727592847396152013-09-04T14:03:41.899-07:002013-09-04T14:03:41.899-07:00Liz Stout--That was well said. The first thing tha...Liz Stout--That was well said. The first thing that came up for me was, "but that is what I do...I just don't call it NH." (Remember NH--so called-- came along AFTER I had paid my dues in the horse training world.) But I certainly use or used those principles you mention to train and get along with my horses. For me, being able to "read" a horse is the big thing. Everything else follows from that.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-80822615732084492412013-09-04T13:56:46.798-07:002013-09-04T13:56:46.798-07:00I think that the bottom line is that no ONE method...I think that the bottom line is that no ONE method is going to fit ALL horses. It isn't a one size fits all. It can't be. NH gets construed into chaos because certain big wig folks within the discipline are master marketers. Being a master marketer of something to make money by no means dictates the ability of that skill to be translated in the proper way. Just because Parelli or Monty or any of them can put out a book and sell DVDs and put on impressive demonstrations does not mean that the way they describe what they've done, the way they've chosen to "break it down" into simplicity is going to WORK. Especially for a beginner that may know nothing of horses. All it does in those cases is directly translate into an animal that could get away with murder if it wanted to because its "trainer" doesn't understand it. There is a fine line between NH and marketing schemes.<br /><br />I've trained both of my horses with natural horsemanship methods, where natural horsemanship means working with the horses natural behavior. I have never once called something I did a "game". My horses are both VERY respectable of my space. <br /><br />While the methods of training I've used are all natural horsemanship of some sort, if you spoke to different big wigs within the NH movement, they'll give different terminology for certain aspects of what I do. But it all boils down to the same thing in my mind: working within the parameters of the horses' natural line of thought and instincts. Herds have a leader. Body language is key to the communication of that leader to the others. NH is just gives a horseperson the skillset (hopefully from a variety of methods within NH) to achieve leadership and respect from that 1,000+ lb. flight animal.<br /><br />So much of it comes back to pressure. Pressure in body language/gestures or physical touch, but pressure all the same. Am I going to dismount my mare when she's having a spazz attack on the trail? No. Absolutely not, unless its a situation where I cannot pass safely through an area that I HAVE to get through. But instead of FORCING her with some sort of violence or attempting to overpower and out-muscle her, I will play toward her knowledge to move off [physical] pressure and to trust in my leadership; and I will do it in a calm manner so that her instinct to freak out isn't escalated further by my own escalation into frustration. An inch at a time, sometimes, but the hurdle is surpassed.<br />Liz Stouthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18267806576736655184noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-86849289416740020232013-09-04T13:52:44.052-07:002013-09-04T13:52:44.052-07:00Jan--Well, I guess I could say that about traditio...Jan--Well, I guess I could say that about traditional training methods, too, wouldn't you say? You have to be a good horseman to get good results. I have sure seen a lot of abuse using traditional methods. But the NH stuff has definitely got the (deserved or not) reputation for the pushy, disrespectful horses that aren't actually used for riding to speak of.<br /><br />So here's a question. Take a horse like Lester, trained with whatever my mix of traditional horsemanship and just what works for me could be called, who became, by most folks standards, a reasonably broke riding horse (as long as he wasn't asked to do stressful, high speed events or be by himself--on the trail or anywhere else). But he could be ridden by anybody, within these parameters. Do you think NH techniques could improve such a horse?Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-46759198654747660032013-09-04T13:33:46.288-07:002013-09-04T13:33:46.288-07:00I have been involved in many equine disciplines an...I have been involved in many equine disciplines and seen a wide range of training methods. I have taken what seems to work and makes sense to me and morphed it into my system. I have seen good and bad in all disciplines and probably learned as much from the bad as the good. As in no way in hell would I ever do that.<br /><br />In all these disciplines I have seen people using NH training or techniques, but not very successfully. As others have said, the horses all were pushy at best and obnoxious or dangerous at worst. <br /><br />I'm sure there are good NH trainers that understand the system and get good results, but all I have ever personally seen are train wrecks. Not all of these horses were trained using the Parelli method, some John Lyons, some Buck, some Monty Roberts, it seems Parelli just has the worst reputation.<br /><br />From what I have seen, you have to be an excellent horseman to start with to make progress with the NH training. People that couldn't get good results with more traditional training don't get good results with NH either. The NH gurus and their top protégés get the amazing results with most horses and the rest are a crap shoot at best. Some good minded horses turn out okay and then there are a whole lot of confused, messed up horses. Those are the horses that most of us see or hear horror stories about, so it's no wonder NH has such a bad reputation outside of their devotees.Jannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-79346199054660190722013-09-04T12:07:37.771-07:002013-09-04T12:07:37.771-07:00Stephanie--Good points. And I, too, picked things ...Stephanie--Good points. And I, too, picked things that worked for me that I learned from different trainers and systems and avoided what didn't work, so I hear you on that one. It isn't as though we MUST adhere to one training system or another.<br /><br />Gayle--Great description of what sounds like a fine trainer. And its so true about horses being different and that what works for one does not work for another.<br /><br />kel--Those have been my perceptions, too. But I am interested to hear if others who have been around truly accomplished NH trainers have had a vastly different experience.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-54181134220162241372013-09-04T11:25:45.657-07:002013-09-04T11:25:45.657-07:00My experiences with Parelli and NH trainers have b...My experiences with Parelli and NH trainers have been less than productive. But none of the trainers have been in the UPPER levels of Parelli/NH either. They were (IMO) wanna-be's and from what I can see they missed the entire point. <br /><br />I boarded at a facility that had a NH trainer boarding there as well. By the time she left all I could think of to say about Parelli was... Those of us who can ride, do ride, those that can't ride, do Parelli. <br /><br />Watching her give lessons was silly. In an hour long lesson half the group didn't get mounted until the last 15 minutes of the lesson and the rest were told the horses weren't ready to be ridden...after 45 minutes playing games??? Silly. <br /><br />I do think (like many other methods) there is good and bad with the NH. You just have to pick out what works and leave the rest. With the NH movement around, people are afraid to say that they smacked, whacked or ??? a horse that was being pushy or has bad ground manners. They have this mind set that the horse needs to be treated like a human and kindness, patience and reasoning will fix the issues. That if they can't get things done that way, they are less of a horsemen. That isn't very NATURAL to a horse. And I would be willing to be it you watched some of the back side of all this NH training - you would see that it isn't all hearts and flowers.horsegeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08614136458074519322noreply@blogger.com