tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post8486067584491164501..comments2024-03-26T05:15:39.663-07:00Comments on Equestrian Ink: TrustJami Davenporthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-74140931988773492082011-03-16T08:32:14.183-07:002011-03-16T08:32:14.183-07:00Nice thought provoking post, Laura! Thanks for wri...Nice thought provoking post, Laura! Thanks for writing it!<br /><br />Kerrin Koetsier<br />Parelli CentralKerrin Koetsierhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11604169888455368226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-76703575934361485932011-03-14T18:14:29.187-07:002011-03-14T18:14:29.187-07:00Exactly - it's why I'll take Sera out on a...Exactly - it's why I'll take Sera out on a trail or to shows or clinics and I don't worry so much..I have FUN. <br /><br />It's why I'm staying at the indoor under my trainer's watchful eye while I ride Rosso til I'm more confident I could handle something he throws my way. <br /><br />And the issues we've had are minor - not to me because it affects me directly - but to a trainer? Minor. He's never really freaked out under saddle or bucked hard, or reared or bolted - nothing nasty. <br /><br />Took him to a cowboy trainer guy who rode him up, down, all around and I watched a lot to see what he'd do if pushed in a situation he was nervous in. Cowboy dude told me he'd be fine and he didn't do anything out of the ordinary or dangerous when taken out of his element - I mean this guy rode him along 2 lane highways that are pretty busy, took him to the mountains, rode him thru big streams etc. <br /><br />I wanted to know if Rosso would get dangerous if pushed and the trainer knew that is why Rosso was there. He pushed him.<br /><br />Rosso is one of those higher strung horses and I've never had one of those... it's nerve wracking to me - not sure I'd do that personality type again as a riding horse. Not that I want "dead" but I think I like a little more confident beastie. grin.<br /><br />Hoping I can get to a good place of trust with him and know what to expect and how to deal with it.<br /><br />It's like Horse of Course says... I haven't had the opportunity to ride many horses. It limits the experiences and knowledge a bit in my opinion. <br /><br />I've had a horse 1 at a time...so this is a pretty new sort of horse to me and I'm figuring things out. I'm committed to seeing things through and most importantly learn.<br /><br />Figure it'll make me a better person... positive affirmation anyone? heh hehShansterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04397551985965117012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-62581330097569779502011-03-14T16:00:24.665-07:002011-03-14T16:00:24.665-07:00Funder--That is so true. And the part about it wea...Funder--That is so true. And the part about it wearing you out to remain on guard is one thing I really struggle with. I think part of the reason I've had so few wrecks is because I am careful and vigilant--always alert for a problem. But it isn't relaxing. This is why I love Henry and Sunny so much. I can relax my vigilance and trust that they will behave--they are very proven, steady trail horses. Its such a pleasure to be able to relax (within reasonable limits--I don't close my eyes) and enjoy the ride.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-18648236376799521692011-03-14T14:55:05.265-07:002011-03-14T14:55:05.265-07:00re: criminals - Shanster, the phrase I picked up f...re: criminals - Shanster, the phrase I picked up from dog training is "let the dog make the mistake." Works for horses, too - you have to trust them just until they make the mistake and don't correct them before. I try really hard to always trust that Dixie will do the right thing, but be ready to jump in and correct her if she does the wrong thing. Keeps me from preemptively fussing and fidgeting. <br /><br />It's still hard to always be on guard against a certain behavior. Wears you out waiting for that mistake, doesn't it? :-/Funderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06358687366401205336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-45449153570348464282011-03-14T14:47:24.589-07:002011-03-14T14:47:24.589-07:00Shanster--I know you are working on the trust thin...Shanster--I know you are working on the trust thing with Rosso, and I, for one, think you are doing it exactly right. I totally agree about not treating a horse like a criminal if he's not acting like one. If you read your horse and he's saying that he's doing his best to get along with you, then yeah, its time to extend some trust. If he's saying he wants to test you a little than its time to be watchful and ready to set firm limits.<br /><br />Glad you're back--hope you had a good trip!Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-43206816109187872702011-03-14T14:22:13.156-07:002011-03-14T14:22:13.156-07:00I really liked this post Laura! So MUCH info and ...I really liked this post Laura! So MUCH info and so well thought out. <br /><br />My mare and I have a good relationship. I trust her as much as I could trust a horse...tho' I know not to trust her completely and blindly because she is still a horse and while we communicate well, we are still different species. grin. <br /><br />I sort of think "soul mate" is an odd choice of words to describe a relationship with any animal really. Tho, it's meaning can be different for different people! <br /><br />And absolutely - Sera went thru a phase where she tested and I had to set acceptable boundaries. We have a good working relationship and I try to keep all things honest with her. I think she does the same.<br /><br />Rosso on the other hand? No, I do not trust him. Yes, I have extended more trust to him and we are working together but as a girlfriend of mine put it, "it's like he was a bad boyfriend and has to earn your trust again" <br /><br />I'm not sure he'll completely mellow out to be a horse like Sera. Jury is out on that one. I also think our personalities don't exactly work...think he needs a more aggressive/fearless rider who find his antics amusing or fun. <br /><br />I'm pretty sure he's going to want to test me again at some point and I'm hoping to have learned enough to put those boundaries into practice and to be rider enough to enforce it adequately. <br /><br />I would not have taken him or Sera on without the help of my very competent trainer. I have heard both her and another trainer tell me, 'you can't treat the horse like a criminal unless he acts like a criminal' and my take on that was that it is about extending the trust olive branch... while still being ready to respond IF something should come up. It's a fine line for sure. Defensive riding vs. offensive riding I suppose.<br /><br />I really appreciated your insight and thoughts and thoroughness... excellent and a post worth reading again. Thanks!Shansterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04397551985965117012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-88427695802362699502011-03-13T18:22:39.235-07:002011-03-13T18:22:39.235-07:00Kate--What do you think about a joint post? We cou...Kate--What do you think about a joint post? We could do it at the same time--and both reflect on this subject. I think it was someone else who said it on your blog (maybe Linda), but I immediately got the point. If you don't know how to MAKE a horse behave through strong methods its very hard to be accurate in your assessment of where you're at. I, too have moved very far from harsh methods--but its partly because I understand them--I'm not just afraid of them and "making nice" with my horses. I think its a great idea for a post--but I would need a little time to compose an effective piece. Do you have a thinking as to schedule? Do you want to send me your email? Mine is laurae@cruzio.comLaura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-46409413996429113382011-03-13T17:06:19.876-07:002011-03-13T17:06:19.876-07:00Laura - I'd like to follow up on your comment ...Laura - I'd like to follow up on your comment (I think it was on my blog) that it's easier to find a position in the middle - where you provide your horse with adequate leadership but aren't overly harsh - if you've migrated from the harsher (but not abusive) end of things - planet Z in my terms. I think there's a lot of truth to that, and this would partly explain why the people who've only lived on planet X sometimes get into trouble by too much "making nice" and failing to step up and provide strong leadership and direction. A lot of fear/failure to progress on the Planet X front comes from this - people are too tentative, too careful in a way. And some Planet X folks get in very serious (even dangerous) trouble due to this, as you pointed out in your original post.<br /><br />That would be an interesting post if you could do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-70997366372339000682011-03-13T08:44:18.341-07:002011-03-13T08:44:18.341-07:00Breathe--The reason I don't like Parelli is la...Breathe--The reason I don't like Parelli is largely because most all of the horses that I have seen that come from Parelli oriented training are poorly behaved. By poorly behaved I mean that they don't obey the rider/handler's directions and feel free to try to dominate the situation. They seem resentful and pushy to me and many of them did not have any of the basic skills needed to be an acceptable riding horse and the people were quite literally unwilling to ride them--the whole time giving excuses for this state of affairs.<br /><br />Parelli and his wife teach some very odd things. I did "know" Pat Parelli slightly many years ago before he became so famous--he demonstrated his mule doing reining patterns bridless at the Snaffle Bit Futurity, and he obviously had some skill. It appears to me that being a celebrity has gone to his head--as so often happens. Just my opinion.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-51333535312116515172011-03-13T06:49:41.933-07:002011-03-13T06:49:41.933-07:00One of the frustrating limitations of blogging is ...One of the frustrating limitations of blogging is that we can't really understand what someone means when they say they"disciplined their horse". When I rode in the clinic with Rashid, I said, as we were working on something, I was worried about being in my horse's mouth all the time. <br /><br />He told me "are you in his mouth or is he in your hands?". That statement made realize that I needed to rearrange the line of firmness in my mind.<br /><br />Parelli has been badly applied IMHO. The tenets aren't that different from Rashid, just more buried in simplistic teachings that lose subtlety. Ironically most of the useful things I've learned lately is subtle<br /><br />Quite a journey.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13104422629934443842noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-58499127017209085952011-03-12T11:55:39.603-08:002011-03-12T11:55:39.603-08:00joycemocha--I see it roughly the same. I am puzzle...joycemocha--I see it roughly the same. I am puzzled by statements like "if I just show the horse what I want in a way he understands, he'll do it." That's not been my experience overall. Most horses reach a point, or have a day, when they would rather not be ridden, or do the work you have in mind. You can show them what you want in a way they understand until the cows come home and they'll show that they don't choose to do it. They understood from the beginning what you wanted. Unless you tell them, "sorry, you have to," in a way they understand, which often looks like a reprimand, all they do is learn that if they resist they can dominate you and do what they choose. Back to my mounting bareback--unless I deliver the mild reprimand, these old pros of mine will quite calmly and gently prevent me from climbing on, chuckling inwardly the whole time.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-2183235450337942492011-03-12T09:16:30.051-08:002011-03-12T09:16:30.051-08:00Laura--I'd just say that with those old pro ho...Laura--I'd just say that with those old pro horses, they're expressing their opinion (being pushy). You're expressing your opinion right back (growl, perhaps a light whack). Horse complies with a deep sigh.<br /><br />If you think of it in terms of herd interactions, what just happened was a fairly typical herd exchange. Horses are always going to check out where they are in a dominance structure, whether from fear that they're still getting support or whether it's being pushy to see if they can move up to the top. <br /><br />It's all about the communication.joycemochanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-42580565975362415892011-03-11T16:23:04.092-08:002011-03-11T16:23:04.092-08:00kel--I ,too, love to hear about other folks "...kel--I ,too, love to hear about other folks "fixes". I have found that what works well on one horse doesn't always work on another, so its good to get new ideas. For the mounting thing, if I try to mount bareback by getting the horse next to something, be it fence or whatever, several of my horses will oh-so-casually step away as I get ready to get on. This would happen over and over again if I did not "reprimand" them. They aren't afraid, and they know exactly why I want them to stand there. They are (for lack of a better way to put it) testing. So I growl, and bump them with the leadrope, and if that doesn't do it I give them a little whack, and they sigh and stand still for me and I get on. Its all no big deal, either to me or to them. But I am at a loss to understand how this would not qualify as behavior that needs a mild reprimand. They know what I want. Anyways--just more of my thinking on this whole question.<br /><br />I'll do a post about the overly harsh stuff, too. But it will have to address that the source of much (not all) of the cruel crap I have seen is the desire to win some competition or other.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-72575132612792430032011-03-11T15:01:09.836-08:002011-03-11T15:01:09.836-08:00Laura and Kate... I too have seen those crazy indi...Laura and Kate... I too have seen those crazy individuals that will be down right cruel to horses. It just boils my blood to see any creature treated in that manner. It gives me the same "heart hurt" as when I hear about abused children. Another good post would be about appropriate fixes. An example would be when the big dorky TB moved away from the block... Jen gave him two chances to get it right... then made him yield his hindquarters around both directions and made him move his feet with some energy. The message being if you want to move...then MOVE - but in a fashion that isn't exactly comfortable for him. She never physically touched him with anything.The whole thing took less than a minute or two. Sometimes the little things are way more meaningful than the big blow out fights. I am sure we all have little fixes and I would love to hear about them.horsegeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08614136458074519322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-77548277096275417302011-03-11T13:48:57.332-08:002011-03-11T13:48:57.332-08:00Oh, and Kate--Maybe I should next do a post about ...Oh, and Kate--Maybe I should next do a post about how much damage can be done by forcing horses too harshly. I have certainly seen just as much evil done that way as by the too permissive folks. I guess I hit on the "overly trusting" negatives because so few people in "horse blog land" seem to be in the overly harsh camp. And I have read some things that struck me as being somewhat wishful thinking when it came to working with horses. Thus the post.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-48184708764593377962011-03-11T13:42:59.661-08:002011-03-11T13:42:59.661-08:00Kate--I think you have to have learned how to be t...Kate--I think you have to have learned how to be truly tough with a horse to move accurately into that place between too harsh and too permissive. Somebody said that on your blog, too. And some of us, once we've learned that (this would be me) often talk tougher than we actually behave any more. Nonetheless, the sort who talk a lot about much the horse is their soulmate and such always raise my suspicions that they are not competent horsemen far more than the ones who say they're going to "wallop him". Just my prejudice. Again really believe that the right way to treat a horse is somewhere between too harsh and too permissive and finding that line can be hard, because it differs from horse to horse. To go back to the point of my post--you just have to be able to read the horse.<br /><br />kel--I get your sense of humor. And again, I come from the same school of thought and would have been likely to say (and mean) the same things. But thanks for replying back to Kate who is a thoughtful and interesting writer about horse related subjects.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-74234670496575115732011-03-11T12:07:29.551-08:002011-03-11T12:07:29.551-08:00kel - thanks for adding something - you're rig...kel - thanks for adding something - you're right, I don't know you and I shouldn't have assumed that when you used language like that it meant that you would do the sort of thing to the horse that the words suggested to me. Unfortunately, in the world I came from (I'm rarely around people like that any more), there were a number of people who would beat up horses, sometimes at the drop of a hat, either because the horse "deserved" it or because they were angry and that's what they did when they were angry. Pretty ugly stuff. Sorry for any misunderstanding.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-45272746431450643712011-03-11T09:07:37.722-08:002011-03-11T09:07:37.722-08:00I thought about whether to respond back to this p...I thought about whether to respond back to this post or not. What to write? The internet is a wonderful thing and blogs let you make new friends and exchange ideas with people you would never get to meet in real life. <br />What I forget is that not everyone knows you - like really knows you and your mannerisms. I can be a potty mouth. There I said it. If I offended anyone, I apologize. <br />So when I say things like "kick his ass" what I really mean is that I am going to discipline him in an appropriate way. Maybe yeild his hind quarters around, make him move his feet, etc. I don't really kick his ass or beat him up or box with him. Horses understand certain commands or words but they really don't comprehend english in sentences. If I were to have stood up and said in a harsh tone - "come over here you big lover boy" he would have still moved to me. If I would have bent over and told him in a soft cooing voice that if he doesn't move his feet that I am going to kick his ass - he wouldn't have moved. He doesn't understand sentences. He is samrt but not that smart. :) As Laura said it is about being able to read the horse and the horse reading you.horsegeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08614136458074519322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-2079662418175655982011-03-11T05:34:22.134-08:002011-03-11T05:34:22.134-08:00Linda - very much liked your comment here and over...Linda - very much liked your comment here and over at my post - thanks for saying what you did so well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-8240196715637604922011-03-10T17:15:59.061-08:002011-03-10T17:15:59.061-08:00Linda--I think your point about movement being a g...Linda--I think your point about movement being a good thing is well taken. Trying to "control" too much is often a mistake. And staying in charge in a good way is often about having the confidence to let the horse move. Those are really good insights. My biggest learning lately is about my Sunny horse who really needs reprimands--so I'm writing a lot about that. But most of my past mounts did not need this, nor did I reprimand them much if at all, so people are probably getting a slightly skewed idea of my thinking. But I am dealing with what my current horse presents and needs and all the wishful thinking in the world won't make him different to how he is. Thanks for an insightful comment--I, too, think the subject is very worth discussing and hearing different points of view.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-7650165336793812602011-03-10T16:47:50.217-08:002011-03-10T16:47:50.217-08:00I haven't read any of the comments yet, but wa...I haven't read any of the comments yet, but want to write mine before it slips away--then I'll go back and read everyone elses. I've followed this discussion over from Kate's blog...again. I love this idea of trust, and I use that word a lot--but not anywhere close to the way the trainer in the story used it. When I say "trust" it's within the framework of training a horse step by step, understanding where the horse is at, and moving forward as it is safe for both horse and rider to do so. It's letting go of expectations (the horse of the past or wishful thinking about the horse you have) and dealing moment by moment with the horse who is actually there. I've had horses for about thirty years, raised and train a handful of colts and now a mustang, and have never been hurt or even bucked off, and my farrier loves to come and trim all seven of mine--but I still have a lot to learn. My two rules are safety first and do as little as you have to to get the maximum result. The more confident you become (as you pointed out about the "great" trainers) the less you will have to do....and, certainly, the less carrot sticks and such that you'll be buying. One last thought about how you took care of the bolter--I think movement with horses is almost always a good thing. A confident rider lets the horse move freely under him and uses aids to communicate. A nervous rider tenses up and tries to "control" the horse and usually makes it more nervous.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303523299217618526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-452138293346337752011-03-10T12:17:25.174-08:002011-03-10T12:17:25.174-08:00joycemocha--Its funny--I do consider Sunny forgivi...joycemocha--Its funny--I do consider Sunny forgiving. In many ways, he's a babysitter. He just requires this "prove your dominance" demonstration every once in awhile. Funny horse.<br /><br />Kate--I always wonder how much is a difference in semantics. I'm apt to say I "walloped" a horse, and maybe you would say you "got his attention back on you", but both of us are somewhat doing the same thing and I know neither of us is hurting said horse. And Sunny has made me revisit this whole dominance issue. None of my other horses require the kind of reprimands that he does. It took me quite awhile to figure him out, and I'm still mildly surprised at the way his mind seems to work.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-41216410263585821222011-03-10T10:24:37.629-08:002011-03-10T10:24:37.629-08:00Laura - that description made more sense to me, al...Laura - that description made more sense to me, although what you might do in such a case might differ from what I would do and we might think about it somewhat differently - it's hard to know in the abstract since as you point out every horse, and horse/rider combo, are different. There are certain horses who are very dominant (our Lily was one), and I expect certain stallions, where dominance issues/contests could arise, but with Lily it was really a ground manners thing not so much an under saddle thing although she was never an easy ride. I also agreed with what redhorse said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-88613041629877176242011-03-10T09:45:16.590-08:002011-03-10T09:45:16.590-08:00Laura--yes, Mocha does have a few similarities wit...Laura--yes, Mocha does have a few similarities with Sunny! The difference is that she hides her pushiness under a veneer of pleasant compliance. In many ways, that makes her potentially more difficult than a more straightforward horse like Sunny. The less experienced only see her overall mellow good temperament and her social side, but they don't pick up on the athletic and pushy pieces.<br /><br />Then again, I've known her from foalhood and I knew her dam, who was a very intense competitor (a former Bob Loomis reining horse). Her dam was much more like Sunny in temperament, and she didn't cut anyone any slack. Mocha is more forgiving than her mama Annie.joycemochanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-48736931154592279812011-03-10T07:42:27.327-08:002011-03-10T07:42:27.327-08:00joycemocha--I really like your comment. My relatio...joycemocha--I really like your comment. My relationship with Sunny is much like yours with Mocha--except he's not the athlete Mocha is. I need to be firm and stay in charge or he'll take over. But its just this strong minded confidence in himself that makes him such a solid trail horse. So I appreciate this trait.<br /><br />I have not been impressed with the horses I have seen that came out of a NH program. I actually arranged for a horse I helped train to go to a very good woman who is an NH student. She has maybe twenty horses and feels the horse we gave her is the best riding horse of the lot. I wonder why?<br /><br />redhorse. Yes. I agree with everything you say. And I completely second the idea that our horses must earn our trust just as we earn theirs. I think we should all note how "firm" horses are with each other. This is the language they understand.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.com