tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post5979058528154566482..comments2024-03-26T05:15:39.663-07:00Comments on Equestrian Ink: Magical or Foolish?Jami Davenporthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-32334313975800507942012-01-24T08:45:15.953-08:002012-01-24T08:45:15.953-08:00dunslidin--Your horse sounds like a real gem. What...dunslidin--Your horse sounds like a real gem. What a sweet story.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-33970080144734937052012-01-23T08:11:05.172-08:002012-01-23T08:11:05.172-08:00I do have to share this, only because it tickled m...I do have to share this, only because it tickled me so much about my horse. A local trainer had brought a newly bought horse to a fun show to see how it would handle the pressure before she had the youth they had bought the horse for ride it. We were hanging out waiting for our halter class and the gelding got scared and reared up(all 16' 2"). My gelding nickered softly at him and when he landed stretched his neck out and nickered again in this soothing tone. The rearing gelding reached his neck out to him and started licking his lips. This trainer laughed and said that the new guy seems to have a little battered housewife traits but this trainer is so gentle and the horse will be so happy where he is now. She was impressed that my gelding was wanting to sooth him and tell him it was o.k. What can I say, he is such a special guy.dunslidinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15752870701244760538noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-65816757604708207582012-01-22T09:56:06.104-08:002012-01-22T09:56:06.104-08:00Very interesting stuff, Val. I have never done thi...Very interesting stuff, Val. I have never done this, but I absolutely realize that there are many good ways to train horses, and if what you do is working for you, and you and your horse stay safe and happy, more power to you. Certainly many, many people like/use the lunge line as a training tool, and what you do sounds like a natural extension of this. Thanks for an interesting comment. I enjoy these discussions, too, and always learn a lot.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-19907696969577495122012-01-22T07:24:34.694-08:002012-01-22T07:24:34.694-08:00This is a really interesting post and conversation...This is a really interesting post and conversation. Thanks for getting it started!<br /><br />First, I do not like anything in training that implies mysticism or magic. I also get pretty annoyed when I hear favorable things about animal communicators. No offense to anyone who likes that sort of thing. I just do not and I find it kind of insulting. I can communicate with my horse and read his expression based on our time together which has included mutual respect and leadership tipped towards me.<br /><br />That being said, I do "play" with my horse on occasion, but not in the way you describe. I do not ask my horse to rear or buck on command. Our liberty "play" includes him backing, walking, trotting, cantering and halting when I ask, and changing direction. I use a small rectangular ring, because my horse tends to rush and lose concentration in a round pen (bad past experiences, maybe). I carry a whip, but I also use my posture and feet to convey to him what I want. If I want him to trot, I jog in place or slowly forward. If I want him to walk, I walk. I have also found that I can encourage my horse to shift his balance back in trot or canter by demonstrating with my own posture and taking steps in a slower, more deliberate rhythm. I do not consider these things magic, in fact they are pretty traditional, just requested in a nontraditional way. <br /><br />It is worth mentioning that I did not start training my horse this way. I taught him these things on the longe line first and then translated them to work sans longe line. Interestingly, sometimes he offers more noticeable changes in his balance when the line is absent. My horse is also nearly 14 and I have had him for 5 years. Our training relationship and partnership were well established before I ever thought to "play" with him. I use the word "play", because it is fun, but I consider most types of horse training fun especially with a willing horse. Safety and caution are always in the front of my mind.Valhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07335385366138424092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-28433394743644750952012-01-21T12:54:47.006-08:002012-01-21T12:54:47.006-08:00Jami--I would really love to see Cavalia. I've...Jami--I would really love to see Cavalia. I've heard so much about it.<br /><br />White Horse Pilgrim--I do agree. For many years I turned my horses out in the winter in a 60 acre pasture, and I really enjoyed watching them play. It WAS magical, in the best sense of the word. And I, also, kept out of their way. Also, in the cases I have known when one horse seriously damaged another, it was mostly by accident--getting carried away in play as you say. Sometimes it was a dominance gesture, but a horse does not (usually--I have known apparent exceptions) mean to damage another horse. However, it does happen. And we humans are so much easier to damage (!)Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-8053293917624661412012-01-21T12:17:45.240-08:002012-01-21T12:17:45.240-08:00I had a pair of geldings who loved to play rearing...I had a pair of geldings who loved to play rearing games together in the field. They were just playing too, not fighting for hierarchy. I drove them as a pair and they worked delightfully together. When standing one would lean over and rest his chin on the other's neck. It was magical to watch their games, however I kept out of their way - they would just forget that a person was nearby. A horse can get carried away, just as a person can.White Horse Pilgrimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18256903307281225327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-32042452665635583882012-01-21T10:13:46.672-08:002012-01-21T10:13:46.672-08:00Wow, I can't even imagine. My mare is 17-1 and...Wow, I can't even imagine. My mare is 17-1 and huge. I don't even like to get in the pasture with her when she's in her "playing" mood. We've been snowed in big time around here. A couple days ago, I turned Gailey loose in the pasture after being cooped up for a few days. The dogs and I stood safely on the other side of the fence and watched while she ran and bucked and reared, doing laps around the pasture. No way, would I want to encourage that behavior when I'm handling her.<br /><br />On a related note, Cavalia is in town. I've seen them before, and they are incredible, but it's one of those "don't try this at home" types of things. I can imagine how many "horse trainers" will watch Cavalia's performance and try to replicate it. Everything the Cavalia trainers do is very controlled. I am certain they spend a very long time building up respect and discipline from those horses before they ever attempt the more<br />sensational "tricks" that they do.Jami Davenporthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-3867210329469231222012-01-21T09:44:12.454-08:002012-01-21T09:44:12.454-08:00Yep, Michele. You and I are on the same page.Yep, Michele. You and I are on the same page.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-31429878426910639242012-01-20T09:27:53.785-08:002012-01-20T09:27:53.785-08:00Thank You, Laura. I have never played with my hors...Thank You, Laura. I have never played with my horses, and don't ever intend to. I, too, winced when I read the post and thought, "Hmmm. Yeah. No. Not for me."Michelehttp://www.michelescott.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-31920983987125186392012-01-20T07:32:27.218-08:002012-01-20T07:32:27.218-08:00Thanks, Leslie. That word "magical", alw...Thanks, Leslie. That word "magical", always worries me. People who use it seem to think there is some elusive mystical connection we can have with our horses beyond the bond I described in my post. Often the means they want to use to achieve this "bond" strike me as dangerous and foolish--as you say, lacking in common sense. But, of course, they would simply say I didn't understand the "magic" that is possible.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-14800764260867103022012-01-20T07:10:16.549-08:002012-01-20T07:10:16.549-08:00My thoughts often go to-where has the common sense...My thoughts often go to-where has the common sense gone? Never ceases to amaze me how people, who don't really know horses, perceive them, often like big puppies. <br /><br />Like you Laura,I also believe,these trainers, or whatever they claim to be, teaching this stuff on youtube, are doing a disservice to young and impressionable older first time horse owners, who believe having horses is a magical experience. Reality check! It's alot of work and the magic comes in the those very things Laura mentioned. <br /><br />When I was teaching kids about horses I ALWAYS showed them the realities of horses from injuries to people and horses to grooming and the environment horses live in. Most of the time, the girls had an impression that owning a horse was, in a word magical. I had mothers thank me for the reality I brought to the lessons.<br /><br />"How do I achieve my brand of magic? Its simple, and I’ll give you the secret right now for free. I interact with my horses as a competent, kind, firm, consistent, traditional horseman." Exactly right Laura!Lesliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00224646742863478548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-7127781871922315822012-01-18T18:52:02.656-08:002012-01-18T18:52:02.656-08:00Gayle-I read your post and I thought it was great....Gayle-I read your post and I thought it was great. I highly recommend that everybody go read Gayle's post. Its very instructive. Thank you, Gayle--for helping me prove my point.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-73334896811218461322012-01-18T18:20:09.453-08:002012-01-18T18:20:09.453-08:00I was going to leave a big long comment about my e...I was going to leave a big long comment about my experience "playing" with my horse. Then I just decided to write it all up on my own blog. http://thatsmysnoopy.blogspot.com/2012/01/play-nice.html<br /><br />Thanks for the interesting topic!Gayle Carlinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783449240138097315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-81157325836367422492012-01-18T15:38:25.443-08:002012-01-18T15:38:25.443-08:00Breanna--Well, I was hoping somebody would step in...Breanna--Well, I was hoping somebody would step in and explain this stuff in a way that makes sense. Thank you! What you said there does make sense to me, and though I have no personal experience with it, if I had a horse that I felt "stuck" with, as you describe, I would certainly be open to a new method that seemed safe. I very much appreciate your statement that "rearing is NOT encouraged as it is almost always an expression of dominance, and the purpose of this is to establish YOUR dominance." That resonates for me. So were you able to turn this horse around and make him a reliable riding horse using these methods? If so, that is very impressive.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-53001381683915233792012-01-18T15:31:10.723-08:002012-01-18T15:31:10.723-08:00joyce--Yes, this is what I feel is the potential p...joyce--Yes, this is what I feel is the potential problem--people trying to play these games with horses when the people don't have the skills (this is most of us), and the horse is not a saint (this is most of them)--bad things can result, just as you point out with your ponies.<br /><br />Alison--Yes. That's exactly the point. My methods (and yours) may not make us horse gurus, or highly thought of online trainers, but they've kept us safe and enjoying our horses into our more advanced years. To me, that's the most important thing.<br /><br />Aarene--Sounds like Fiddle was once quite a challenge (!) And I LOVE the Bad Idea Fairy--as long as its always clear that she IS the Bad Idea Fairy. When bad ideas are presented as fun/magical by respected people, well, that I don't like so much. Some of us can figure out that these lyrical pieces are not for imitation by the rank and file (this would be you and me), but there are many young or less experienced people who simply won't understand this, and may get hurt trying to imitate a trainer they admire.<br /><br />Holly C--Your horse sounds like a true saint and you were blessed to have him. I feel the same way about my son's horse, Henry. He would, I'm sure, be equally careful not to step on a toddler, and has already proven his tolerance with certain dogs. But the truth is I actively do my best (and I'm sure you did to), not to put Henry's patience to the test. I am vigilant about keeping little children out of his pen (and all the other corrals), and I do my best with the dogs. The truth is that even a saint can make a mistake (not out of meanness, just bad luck), and if the results are harmful to some other poor creature, that mistake is going to be very costly. Thus my thinking is not to interact with loose horses in "play", nor to sit under them, however kind they may be. I have chased horses in turnout (when I worked for training barns) to get them to move and exercise, so I know what you mean about that. I also know how much trust can be put in a truly gentle horse. I don't want to take anything away from what a lovely horse you had--just want to be sure that people realize that most horses simply are not that saintly, and that the downside of a mistake can be huge.<br /><br />Susan-A friend of mine had her arm broken when a reasonably gentle horse who was feeling good reared on the lead rope and struck her arm (completely by accident).Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-78549585786390062822012-01-18T15:19:22.859-08:002012-01-18T15:19:22.859-08:00Ok now I will step in and defend the at-liberty wo...Ok now I will step in and defend the at-liberty work... ;)<br /><br />I started doing a lot of work with my horse at liberty because he was having major issues and more traditional methods just weren't working. A former trainer lent me a book by Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling and told me to try his "method", which includes "playing" at liberty. HOWEVER, he stresses first and foremost personal safety, and there are certain guidelines that must be followed, one being you do not allow the horse in your space. These "games" are played in a controlled area, with the human carrying a lunge whip and using it to keep distance between themselves and the horse. Rearing is NOT encouraged, as it is almost always a display of dominance from the horse, and the purpose of this is to establish YOUR dominance. It is not a testing of the horse's "mood" to decide if you should ride or not, but it can be used to remind the horse that you are the boss prior to getting on.<br /><br />Like I mentioned, I tried this because nothing else was working very well with this horse, and what a difference it has made! He had major fear issues which are now at least controllable if not gone, and he now looks to the human for direction (mostly) if there is something he is unsure about. I'm sure the same things could have been accomplished in other ways, but for a long time I was too afraid to ride this horse (he bucked me off several times), so that really limited my options.<br /><br />I do agree with you Laura that the first priority is safety, and I would not have done this if I hadn't had a mentor with MUCH more experience than me to help me stay safe.Breannahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14926688591022319522noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-80001191820944500022012-01-18T14:37:25.017-08:002012-01-18T14:37:25.017-08:00I recently had a newly gelded horse rear with me o...I recently had a newly gelded horse rear with me on the end of the lead rope. It's the first time I ever had that happen and, even though he never got close enough to put me in danger, it scared me. Rearing horses are fun to watch, but let them do it on their own time.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04986249712144982103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-30925228662488590642012-01-18T14:23:15.004-08:002012-01-18T14:23:15.004-08:00I agree with C.E. Wolfe... I had an experience wit...I agree with C.E. Wolfe... I had an experience with a wonderful horse like that too. There were many times during the years that I owned him that he proved to me he either did not understand how to kick or just preferred not to. Even when he ended up cheek-to-cheek with another horse in the same stall (accidentally as they were being fed) he still didn't even raise his butt to kick, though the other horse kicked him. Another time I had him standing at the cross-ties, waiting to be groomed and a two year old child who was visiting the stables with her mother ran up and stood under my horse. He didn't move a muscle. He had horseflies all over his legs and he didn't so much as twitch his tail. The mother had no control of the child but I was more than pleased to see my horse had the sense not to move when there was a (person) in a dangerous position. After she dragged her child out from under my horse, we explained to her that there wasn't a single other horse in that stable that wouldn't have stomped all over her for doing that, much in the way they often stomped dogs. <br />This exceptional horse was an Egyptian Arabian and had been trained as a roping horse in his early years. He was 15 when I got him. The stable we had him at in the early years didn't have a pasture, so I would often take him to the arena and let him get the kinks out of his legs. Sometimes he just wanted to stand still or try to stick his head under the fence to get grass (it was a Georgian clay arena) so I would encourage him to run and kick up his heels. He was never within 10 feet of me when he did that, but even then he would crow-hop and not *actually* kick out with his hooves. Years later we were fortunate enough to have a barn at our house and he did become a big puppy. We played tag and I spent countless hours with him in the pasture, just sitting & talking with him or rubbing his belly and hugging him. I would never have encouraged him to rear and he didn't seem particularly interested in it anyway. He loved the quiet life of relaxing in the yard or pasture, walking around with my little kids and giving them nose-bumps on their diapers, and just in general being a member of the family. He was the sweetest horse and I was blessed to have known him. He's been gone for about four years now and I'll never forget the time I spent with him. I doubt I'll ever find a horse like him again.Holly C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-22603255448854400922012-01-18T14:13:02.259-08:002012-01-18T14:13:02.259-08:00Sounds like the BAD IDEA FAIRY is back at work aga...Sounds like the BAD IDEA FAIRY is back at work again. Sheesh.<br /><br />I have spent YEARS teaching and enforcing with my dragonmare that if she approaches me, it must be with her head turned aside. Anything else--eeek. <br /><br />Yay for you, Laura!AareneXhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18072169739345465380noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-43011192710429038142012-01-18T13:46:53.961-08:002012-01-18T13:46:53.961-08:00It's interesting how all the people commenting...It's interesting how all the people commenting agree with Laura (including me.) I have spent 55 years with horses and never once have I not been respectful of their power and size. Perhaps that's why I've continued to do it into my 'elderly' years.Alisonhttp://www.alisonhartbooks.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-58692067282168200852012-01-18T12:08:26.537-08:002012-01-18T12:08:26.537-08:00Oh, and after reading Kate's post...
I do a l...Oh, and after reading Kate's post...<br /><br />I do a little bit of ground work. Mocha sometimes gets used for ground work in college classes and I need to give her a quick refresher of the difference between me and them. Doesn't take long.<br /><br />I'll also ground drive if she's moving out of sync and I don't want interference from rider/saddle/bit (I ground drive using a sidepull). Or if I want to work her but not ride, and do something besides lunging. It's also nice if you want to check on how your horse is moving laterally, or if there's a gait issue--that way you can see what's going on. If I were training, I'd use ground driving as a tool to help soften up a horse and use its topline, again, without interference from a rider.<br /><br />But to do that, you've got to know what you are doing and have trained the horse, for best results. Not the same as playing around.Joyce Reynolds-Wardhttp://www.joycereynoldsward.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-16403877740603067142012-01-18T12:02:02.837-08:002012-01-18T12:02:02.837-08:00Hey, I'm totally with you on this, Laura. Whi...Hey, I'm totally with you on this, Laura. While I'll do the occasional liberty work, doing "games" is not a priority.<br /><br />I can speak personally to the dangers of screwing around like this. I used to play "wild horse" with my first Shetland as a kid, and got whacked in the nose with a foreleg. That, plus getting a horse later on who was prone to chase kids and was a striker, along with having a little Shetland stud who reared and struck...uh-uh. Not smart.<br /><br />Some people, though...sigh.joycemochahttp://www.joycereynoldsward.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-81579472481740343392012-01-18T11:26:14.372-08:002012-01-18T11:26:14.372-08:00Nikker--That's one of the things about the int...Nikker--That's one of the things about the internet that's such a two-edged sword. Suddenly we hear all these new ideas we might never hear in "real life" and if we don't have a lot of experience of our own, its so easy to get sucked into somebody's else's thinking--especially somebody that sounds so knowledgable and is calling themselves an experienced horse trainer. And some of this stuff is (in my opinion) truly dangerous and foolish (thus the post). Thanks for your comment--I agree about both the BS and the danger.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-69202513391645569122012-01-18T11:21:03.290-08:002012-01-18T11:21:03.290-08:00Any time I see "playing" or "games&...Any time I see "playing" or "games" used in terms of horses, I really think B.S. first and danger second.<br />Another great post that makes one slow down and think about what kinds of things we as horse owners are bombarded with.Nikkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07121188185593072355noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-750096936953680592012-01-18T09:54:49.007-08:002012-01-18T09:54:49.007-08:00Thank you, Mrs Mom. Glad to know you agree.Thank you, Mrs Mom. Glad to know you agree.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.com