tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post7425488730866464030..comments2024-03-26T05:15:39.663-07:00Comments on Equestrian Ink: The Middle RoadJami Davenporthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05259390150273030284noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-51741968577575076512011-03-27T11:32:04.806-07:002011-03-27T11:32:04.806-07:00Belated comment - my post went in a different dire...Belated comment - my post went in a different direction.<br /><br />I think it's very difficult to get the proper balance between been too big and being ineffective - it's important to get the job done and not nag at the horse, but also not to assume that big is the answer before trying other means. <br /><br />And I do think there's a big difference between being an effective leader and being an alpha or dominant. Leadership isn't necessarily control, it's direction and motivation, which can be achieved with positive reinforcement.<br /><br />I do agree that a lot of horse newbies find it difficult to get big enough when needed - they're worried about their relationship with the horse, but you can't have a good relationship with the horse without being an effective leader - but that doesn't require being punitive or dominant. It also takes confidence and "presence" to get big when needed.<br /><br />I think a lot of people from conventional horse backgrounds are too casually rough with horses - not necessarily to the point of outright abuse, but just proceed on the assumption that it's a big animal and therefore you have to be rough or use punishment as a training method. I think it's possible to be pretty low-key and subtle and still be effective - horses are amazingly sensitive and responsive if given the chance to be - I think most horses are pretty darn willing if we give them a chance to be and don't assume they aren't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-75072426112795086222011-03-17T07:27:33.329-07:002011-03-17T07:27:33.329-07:00Great thoughts, Gayle and Francesca. It does seem ...Great thoughts, Gayle and Francesca. It does seem that some high level performance horses enjoy their job--once they've learned it. Certainly some of my team roping horses liked to go roping--they made that clear.<br /><br />Kate--Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-76900222724484929552011-03-17T01:15:54.762-07:002011-03-17T01:15:54.762-07:00Laura: the middle ground is the right place to be ...Laura: the middle ground is the right place to be as far as I’m concerned. I think I’ve always been in the middle ground as far as horses are concerned. I can’t do the “you will do this and I will beat you until you do it approach” – and goodness knows I’ve witnessed a lot of that.<br /><br />There are a lot of angry trainers around, people with festering frustrations about never having made it to where they wanted to be. They're like angry bulls when they get on horses, and it's ugly. And cruel. They shout, they bully. They're scary. <br /><br />But the other extreme doesn’t work for me either; if we worried so much about coercion we’d just buy horses to look at in fields and admire – although you could also argue that that’s coercion too! Birds in cages? <br /><br />And I do agree with you that to get anywhere in higher levels of competition, horses are going to have to be pushed. Is it right? If they’re capable of doing it, I guess it is, because if you think about it, top level athletes push themselves to their limits too. Of course, then you can also argue that it’s cruelty because when it comes to horses, they are being forced into it, they have no choice. I’m coming from a dressage perspective because that’s what I’m familiar with: but did you see, for example, Fuego’s freestyle to music program in Kentucky? Or have you watched Totillas swagger in and out of the ring, before and after his performances? These horses probably deal with their share of coercion, but their brio doesn’t seem to suffer from it. Are their handlers in the middle ground? Where does the middle ground begin and end? For me, it ends where the horse can’t do what it’s being asked to do, for whatever reason.Francesca Prescotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18201599087106798500noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-30285385492914171772011-03-16T20:23:50.457-07:002011-03-16T20:23:50.457-07:00In their herd, horses are very clear about their b...In their herd, horses are very clear about their boundaries and their desires, and their reasons are all pretty self-centered. And yet, we worry about whether we're coercing them to do what we want. They sure don't worry about their neighbor's feelings as they're chasing him away from the food.<br /><br />I ask my horse first, nicely. Then I demand, also nicely.Gayle Carlinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15783449240138097315noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-12425681529954309192011-03-16T16:30:42.640-07:002011-03-16T16:30:42.640-07:00Post coming - not ready yet - good food for though...Post coming - not ready yet - good food for thought in your post.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-87361260893517362682011-03-16T16:06:47.768-07:002011-03-16T16:06:47.768-07:00Susan--I suppose what I mean by horses are unpredi...Susan--I suppose what I mean by horses are unpredictable is that I have known of steady horses that whether stung by a bee or whatever, suddenly blew up and did something violent. I'm sure there was a reason, but it isn't always something the rider/handler could see coming, making it unpredictable in that sense (and sometimes very dangerous).<br /><br />Anger is a tough one with horses. I have been angry at my horses and i have used my anger to be strong when it was needed. I have also made big mistakes by getting angry and pushing too hard. I try not to act from anger any more. <br /><br />Yes, some trainers just seem to be angry--I agree. And overly fearful horses are a wreck waiting to happen, just as much if not more so than disrespectful horses. Good point.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-85847019265138426632011-03-16T15:59:17.602-07:002011-03-16T15:59:17.602-07:00I had to go back and read your essay on trust beca...I had to go back and read your essay on trust because I missed it.<br /><br />I have two things to add. The first one is about anger. I find a lot of people equate assertiveness with anger and they don't want to get mad at their horses. Well, who does? To me the key is as soon as the reprimand is over, drop the anger, if that's what you had to use to get his attention. You can't hold onto it and expect to have a good relationship with your horse.<br /><br />Also there seem to be way too many angry trainers out there. You know the ones, if they weren't clobbering a horse, they'd be kicking the dog, etc. I can see the fear horses have for these people. In the short term they might get results, but a scared horse isn't one I want to ride. In fact I've had scary experiences with horses that were afraid of being hit.<br /><br />The second point is the well-used phrase, "horses are unpredictable." I disagree. They're totally predictable, if you pay attention to what's going on. There's always a reason they do what they do.<br /><br />Good posts. They keep us thinking and paying attention to our horses.Susanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04986249712144982103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-60800075066795145002011-03-16T15:16:21.391-07:002011-03-16T15:16:21.391-07:00AZTobiano--Great phrase. I'll remember that.
...AZTobiano--Great phrase. I'll remember that.<br /><br />Debby--Thank you so much for a very enlightening comment. I had the impression NH had sort of gone backwards, but since I'm not involved with it, I had no idea if I was right. What you said made a lot of sense to me. I met Pat Parelli thirty years ago when he showed a bridleless mule at the Snaffle Bit and he seemed pretty darn savvy. But all the hype in the intervening years, and the NH people I have seen, have really turned me off to the whole thing. Thanks for the insight.<br /><br />kel--I so agree that a huge thing is to leave anger and fear out of it when working with horses. Its a goal I aspire to, but don't always achieve. Having a couple of truly reliable horses is very helpful--its much harder when faced with a difficult behavior problem.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-44720558574441332242011-03-16T10:17:41.406-07:002011-03-16T10:17:41.406-07:00Great post Laura. I know that you and I for the mo...Great post Laura. I know that you and I for the most part think alike. One thing that my trainer and I talk about is the "discipline wave". It has to do with timing and extent of your discipline. Your discipline or coercion has to match the behavior and it has to peak and ebb as they do. Each horse is different. Some have a small but long (nagging) dicipline wave and for some it is like a white squal. Comes quick and peaks fast. Getting what you asked for and being able to let go of the emotion (that we humans tie to those situations) and go back to that quiet place is someting that takes years to learn. I am still learning it and learning how to leave my human emotions (anger and fear) out of it.<br /><br />In a perfect world our horses would be compliant and perfect performers without any coercion. In reality they have a brain and mind of there own. Sometimes they need to be nugded in the right direction.horsegeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08614136458074519322noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-50381022951140723402011-03-16T10:17:27.014-07:002011-03-16T10:17:27.014-07:00I'm a lurker, not a commentor, but Laura's...I'm a lurker, not a commentor, but Laura's last couple of posts really resonated with me. I'm a NH follower but not a kool-aid drinker. Most people get into natural horsemanship due to a problem horse - they're looking for an answer they can understand for a horse that they don't. In my opinion, NH gets a bad rap because of the people practicing NH to the best of their understanding and ability - not the way that it should be done. I started Parelli in 2003 and I can say that the organization and it's teachings have changed for the worse over the years - dumbing down for the more and more inexperienced horseowner. In all the clinics I've attended, etc., the biggest problem has always been the people who won't go to "Phase 4" - the highest level of correction. They think they're being too hard on the horse when in reality, our worst is nowhere near what another horse would do to that horse if it invaded their space. So instead of insisting, they nag and nag and nag at the horse and the horse never has to do what the person's asking. The person settles for the good enough and the horse, just like a child, knows that mommy's not "really" going to do anything about that behavior. People like NH for all the obvious reasons, but if they never really understand what the bottom line is the results are always going to be unsatisfactory. Trust has to go both ways. The horse has to trust that their person will be fair and not ask something of them that they can't do. The person has to trust that their horse will do what's asked of them. That level of trust builds over time. You ask, your horse hesitates, you insist, he does what you asked with no harm coming to him or you. Trust builds every time that event occurs. However, if we only did what he wanted, we would spend all our time standing in the middle of the pasture watching the world go by. Of course, I would be more than welcome to sit on him and watch the world with him as long as I didn't expect him to move. <br /><br />Debby - a foxhunter and trail riderAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-33214626969210998542011-03-16T10:08:26.704-07:002011-03-16T10:08:26.704-07:00Laura -- My 'phrase' to describe this to ...Laura -- My 'phrase' to describe this to others when training my youngster(s) was that 'they know I won't ask them to do something they can't do, and that I won't accept them not doing it.' The flip side of this is to never to ask them to do somethin they are not able to do, or that you're not able to make them do if they refuse! In other words pick your battles, but don't ever cease learning.AzTobianohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02527361032704550836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-7156246376896379972011-03-16T09:08:07.712-07:002011-03-16T09:08:07.712-07:00Well said, Linda--I agree with all you point out.Well said, Linda--I agree with all you point out.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-30223968351701720842011-03-16T08:56:06.838-07:002011-03-16T08:56:06.838-07:00I haven't come up with an answer to your last ...I haven't come up with an answer to your last question, but I've asked it myself more than once. I don't know if you have to have had exposure to the one type in order to first feel safe--then progress to the least amount to get max result. I tend to think yes. I train for the trail, and as you pointed out, it's more natural and comfortable for the horse, so there may be less resistance. A lot of my horses have also been colts that we've trained up ourselves--which as you also pointed out, need a softer hand since so much of what they're experiencing is new. I have a friend who trains and we used to ride together a lot. She tries to keep even the performance training as natural as possible. For example, if she races them on barrels one day, she always follows up with a trailride the next day. She's found that if she does that, they're more willing to compete when it comes time and they become an all-around solid horse no matter what their future holds. She also has time requirements on her that I don't. People pay her to "put 30 days on them"--and that means they want to see progress. I feel like she uses "the least amount to get the maximum result" in 30 days, but, yes, it's probably more "coercive" than my training. However, I attribute most of her success to her confidence and natural ability with horses. Horses like her--A LOT. They respect her and they want to give it all for her. She makes it look easy. That's why I'll only go so far as saying--I want to find the least amount to get the results, because that's going to be different with every person and every horse and every situation--but the bottom line is you need to feel safe and confident.Lindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14303523299217618526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-621299089870899442011-03-16T08:48:58.854-07:002011-03-16T08:48:58.854-07:00Shanster--Wow! You picked the exact sentences I re...Shanster--Wow! You picked the exact sentences I regarded as the heart of the piece. I didn't think anyone would notice, but you did. Thank you.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-82208666777405649532011-03-16T08:28:29.853-07:002011-03-16T08:28:29.853-07:00Absolutely - this is exactly what I'm trying t...Absolutely - this is exactly what I'm trying to learn with my "delicate flower" of a horse, Rosso. grin. I am so thankful to work with someone who can assist me in this art!! Well written Laura!<br /><br />...you almost inevitably reach a point where the horse would prefer not to do as you ask and then you must be able to insist—with some skill.... Good trainers know how much and when to ask, and how hard to push for compliance. It is a true art and takes time to learn.Shansterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04397551985965117012noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-12869347228711372952011-03-16T07:56:04.869-07:002011-03-16T07:56:04.869-07:00Mikey--As always, I agree with you. Timing is ever...Mikey--As always, I agree with you. Timing is everything--and its still hard to get it right--even after many years experience. I guess the thing that happens after awhile is you notice when you got it wrong(!) And yes, my main emotion these days is gratitude for the good horses I have. When I give them a mild reprimand for some minor testing it is always done just to "keep them honest"--I am never upset with them. They are such good horses.Laura Crumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15200878892304748308noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5037107797013641705.post-52456521991684516022011-03-16T07:42:33.926-07:002011-03-16T07:42:33.926-07:00Another excellent post. I think timing is everythi...Another excellent post. I think timing is everything. Experience counts with horses, and yet the most experienced horsemen can still push too hard and end up with a bad result. Experience, confidence, timing, it all comes into play.<br /><br />I must say, I really do appreciate the good horses I've got now. Being a strong leader is key, but not taking it too far. I like to say I'm their cheerleader, not their bully.Mikeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03574914465998507310noreply@blogger.com